What does it mean when a congregation stands for the national anthem without a second thought, but flinches at a sermon on nonviolence? That is the tension at the center of this conversation with Ben Daniel, Senior Pastor of Montclair Presbyterian Church and author of Grace Over Guns: Pursuing Peace in a Militarized World. Markus and Ben talk about how deeply military symbolism has embedded itself in American church life, and why silence from the pulpit on the subject is its own kind of statement.
A Military Fetish Hiding in Plain Sight
Ben traces how flags, uniforms, and anthems became fixtures in American sanctuaries, and argues that this is not neutral patriotism but a low-grade idolatry that shapes what congregations are willing to say about violence, war, and the nations they live in.
The Cost of Not Standing
When Ben stopped standing for the national anthem, the backlash came from inside his own congregation before it came from anywhere else. He and Markus talk honestly about what that cost him, and why he stayed the course anyway.
Bonhoeffer, Dresden, and the Shape of Costly Peace
Drawing on Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s witness during the firebombing of Dresden, Ben makes the case that real pacifism is not passive. It is a costly, embodied commitment that asks something of the people who claim it, not just a position to hold from a safe distance.
Discussion Questions
- Ben Daniel argues that American Christianity has developed a quiet reverence for military power. Where have you seen this show up in church life, and did it register as unusual to you before this conversation?
- How did flags, uniforms, and anthems become woven into your own experience of church, whether you grew up in a congregation like that or not?
- Ben describes real backlash from his own congregation after he stopped standing for the national anthem. What would it cost you personally to take a similarly unpopular stand in your own church or community?
- Do you agree with Ben that silence from the pulpit on militarism is itself a form of complicity? Why or why not?
- Bonhoeffer’s witness during the bombing of Dresden comes up as a model of costly pacifism. What does it look like to hold a conviction like nonviolence when it actually costs something, rather than when it is safe?
- Where do you see the line between healthy patriotism and the kind of military reverence Ben is describing? Is there a clear line at all?
- Ben and Markus talk about the church’s relationship to power more broadly. How does a congregation’s posture toward military and political power shape its witness?
- What biblical texts or traditions have shaped your own thinking on violence, war, and peacemaking, whether toward pacifism or away from it?
- If a pastor in your context preached on the themes in this episode, how do you think it would land with your congregation?
- What is one question this conversation raised for you that you do not yet have a settled answer to?
